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	<title>Comments on: TSA&#8217;s nose grows as they explain whole-body scanners</title>
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		<title>By: Ponder this while TSA looks at your junk: Two facts, one big TSA lie, four predictions, and a lot of questions &#171; The Reasonable Reporter</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-29229</link>
		<dc:creator>Ponder this while TSA looks at your junk: Two facts, one big TSA lie, four predictions, and a lot of questions &#171; The Reasonable Reporter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] the original lie was exposed, TSA changed its story.  Oh yes, the machines can store images after all, but only when they&#8217;re in “training [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the original lie was exposed, TSA changed its story.  Oh yes, the machines can store images after all, but only when they&#8217;re in “training [...]</p>
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		<title>By: So what&#8217;s really up with those full body scanners?</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19131</link>
		<dc:creator>So what&#8217;s really up with those full body scanners?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 12:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19131</guid>
		<description>[...] colleague, Edward Hasbrouck, in his article at Consumer Traveler, TSA’s nose grows as they explain whole-body scanners, wrote about these scanners’ privacy issues at [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] colleague, Edward Hasbrouck, in his article at Consumer Traveler, TSA’s nose grows as they explain whole-body scanners, wrote about these scanners’ privacy issues at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Edward Hasbrouck</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19091</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward Hasbrouck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 19:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19091</guid>
		<description>@john - It&#039;s not a question of  body scanners *or* pat-downs.  Body scanners will only be effective if anyone with anything anomalous visible under their clothes in the scanner image is patted down closely enough to tell what the image anomaly is.  So many people with harmless things under their clothes that wouldn&#039;t set off a metal detector -- padded bras, mastectomy prostheses, menstrual pads, adult diapers, etc. -- will have their breasts and/or genitals palpated after they&#039;ve gone through the scanner.  Yes, those numbers may be partially offset by people with metal implants that might set off a metal detector but not be seen by a scanner.  But the numbers of women  wearing  padded bras or sanitary napkins likely exceed the numbers of people with large metal implants.  And many implants don&#039;t necessarily require a breast or genital pat-down, but are in less sensitive parts of the body. Scanners will mean more pat-downs, not less, with more of them directed at breasts and genitals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@john &#8211; It&#8217;s not a question of  body scanners *or* pat-downs.  Body scanners will only be effective if anyone with anything anomalous visible under their clothes in the scanner image is patted down closely enough to tell what the image anomaly is.  So many people with harmless things under their clothes that wouldn&#8217;t set off a metal detector &#8212; padded bras, mastectomy prostheses, menstrual pads, adult diapers, etc. &#8212; will have their breasts and/or genitals palpated after they&#8217;ve gone through the scanner.  Yes, those numbers may be partially offset by people with metal implants that might set off a metal detector but not be seen by a scanner.  But the numbers of women  wearing  padded bras or sanitary napkins likely exceed the numbers of people with large metal implants.  And many implants don&#8217;t necessarily require a breast or genital pat-down, but are in less sensitive parts of the body. Scanners will mean more pat-downs, not less, with more of them directed at breasts and genitals.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Rini</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19088</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Rini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19088</guid>
		<description>What if two terrorists flew on the same plane with one carrying what appears to be a harmless powder and his partner carrying an equally innocuous appearing liquid,  both to be  mixed onboard to create an explosive device? I doubt TSA would spot them...........

On a second thought: I have a titanium hip which sets off the scanner whenever I go through security.  Would a full body scanner detect this or would I still have to be wanded?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if two terrorists flew on the same plane with one carrying what appears to be a harmless powder and his partner carrying an equally innocuous appearing liquid,  both to be  mixed onboard to create an explosive device? I doubt TSA would spot them&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p>On a second thought: I have a titanium hip which sets off the scanner whenever I go through security.  Would a full body scanner detect this or would I still have to be wanded?</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19085</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19085</guid>
		<description>1. Use explosive sniffing dogs at security, and if rechecking at the gate, there as well.

2. A pat-down search would have likely discovered the panty bomb as the explosive power would have felt funny to an experienced agent. Of course, right now TSA doesn’t have a reasonable procedure to determine who should be patted-down for a reasonable suspicion.

3. Perform psychological profiling (That’s not racial, religious, or ethnic profiling) of passengers to seek out threats among them. Based on El Al’s history of psychological profiling, and having discussed the idea with security people, I believe the panty bomber would have been identified by this method for secondary screening, which would have required a pat-down search, which would have caught him.
===================================================

Let&#039;s apply these &quot;new&quot; procedures to the shuttle market in the Northeast.  The &quot;Acela&quot; train would salivate at the increased market share.  AIRPORT SECURITY must compete with other modes of transportation, the public&#039;s perception of safety and the ability to make the experience as fast as possible.  That&#039;s why you&#039;re flying, it&#039;s usually a faster mode of transportation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Use explosive sniffing dogs at security, and if rechecking at the gate, there as well.</p>
<p>2. A pat-down search would have likely discovered the panty bomb as the explosive power would have felt funny to an experienced agent. Of course, right now TSA doesn’t have a reasonable procedure to determine who should be patted-down for a reasonable suspicion.</p>
<p>3. Perform psychological profiling (That’s not racial, religious, or ethnic profiling) of passengers to seek out threats among them. Based on El Al’s history of psychological profiling, and having discussed the idea with security people, I believe the panty bomber would have been identified by this method for secondary screening, which would have required a pat-down search, which would have caught him.<br />
===================================================</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s apply these &#8220;new&#8221; procedures to the shuttle market in the Northeast.  The &#8220;Acela&#8221; train would salivate at the increased market share.  AIRPORT SECURITY must compete with other modes of transportation, the public&#8217;s perception of safety and the ability to make the experience as fast as possible.  That&#8217;s why you&#8217;re flying, it&#8217;s usually a faster mode of transportation.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19083</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19083</guid>
		<description>Charlie ... I completely agree with you that the suggestion is smart. Unfortunately it&#039;s only effective for countries where visas are required (not EU). 

As a six sigma black belt, I can tell you that a system becomes more reliable the more parallel paths (in the case the number of different processes that must fail) that you have. So even if the backscatter technology is only 50% effective at detecting non-metalic objects and 100% effective at detecting metal its better than and greatly increases the system reliablity (ie chance of dangerous object getting through).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie &#8230; I completely agree with you that the suggestion is smart. Unfortunately it&#8217;s only effective for countries where visas are required (not EU). </p>
<p>As a six sigma black belt, I can tell you that a system becomes more reliable the more parallel paths (in the case the number of different processes that must fail) that you have. So even if the backscatter technology is only 50% effective at detecting non-metalic objects and 100% effective at detecting metal its better than and greatly increases the system reliablity (ie chance of dangerous object getting through).</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Leocha</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19082</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Leocha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19082</guid>
		<description>One additional suggestion from Stratfor.com has been to immediately revoke a visa should someone&#039;s name get on any of our watch lists. That way at the very least, it keeps suspects off airplanes until they can be investigated. It is a fairly simple process and would be an effective deterrent. Of course innocent till proven guilty won&#039;t apply, but if the investigation is fine, the person can get their visa back again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One additional suggestion from Stratfor.com has been to immediately revoke a visa should someone&#8217;s name get on any of our watch lists. That way at the very least, it keeps suspects off airplanes until they can be investigated. It is a fairly simple process and would be an effective deterrent. Of course innocent till proven guilty won&#8217;t apply, but if the investigation is fine, the person can get their visa back again.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Wechsler</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19081</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Wechsler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 14:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19081</guid>
		<description>Ned Levi could not be more right. Niether of the technologies proposed for full-body screening would show explosives hidden in body cavities, which is the obvious next step for suicide bombers.The
terrorists must be identified BEFORE they even make it to a security check. Even the conservative George Will calls the TSA&#039;s actions and proposals security theater.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ned Levi could not be more right. Niether of the technologies proposed for full-body screening would show explosives hidden in body cavities, which is the obvious next step for suicide bombers.The<br />
terrorists must be identified BEFORE they even make it to a security check. Even the conservative George Will calls the TSA&#8217;s actions and proposals security theater.</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19080</link>
		<dc:creator>john</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 13:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19080</guid>
		<description>Ned ... Simple question. 

In order for pat downs to be effective as a fail safe when everything else fails, they have to be done 100% of the time. 

Would you prefer a pat down to standing in front of a machine? Others on here have complained about time to clear security and security times. Which do you think is faster? Personally, I find that having someone look at a blurred image of me is less intrusive than being groped (Think about where the explosives were placed and where you would have to be felt for them to be detected. From photos I&#039;ve seen a pat on the inside of the leg would not of detected them. The explosives didn&#039;t end up there by accident.). 

Dogs are a great tool but not 100% effective either. As a basic training company commander I coordinated with the MPs to run drug dog through my barracks every 10 weeks (once per cycle) to check for drugs. Afterwords, I let them use the barracks for training (ie they had one MP hide drugs in the building and then sent in the dogs). Lets just say that my confidence in dogs to be 100% effective was greatly shaken.

Let&#039;s be honest... While profiling is a great tool, the elected folks on the hill are never going to let it happen. There are too many negative press releases attached to it. All it takes is one public case and the folks on the hill will be holding hearings. (I&#039;m sorry but profiling looks at the whole person so race, religion, age &amp; ethnic background are part of the equation.) By definition, using profiling will result in certain groups of people having more security checks. (I&#039;d guess Muslim males ages 15 - 35 acting nervous would get the most scrutiny since that’s the profile of the attackers that made it on to planes. Muslim families acting nervous would probably be next since that’s who the UK stopped from bringing liquid explosives on to planes.)  How long after the 60 minutes reports that Muslim males get pulled aside for additional checks more often would Congress hold hearings? In addition, profiling is also more art than science. Israel has the advantage of a limited number of airports so covering them would seem to be an easier than covering every airport in the US with enough profilers to be effective. 

The nice thing about back scatter technology is that its quick, more effective than metal detectors and doesn’t care about your background. This makes it the most politically safe technology to use for screening and can be used in conjunction with Ned’s suggestions. 

All I want is a security system that keeps me safe. Period. Metal detectors don’t do that anymore (google ceramic knives) and go back to 9/11 (Granted onboard improvements make this a less likely avenue of attack). The intel system doesn’t seem to be up to doing it yet. We can all agree that TSA doesn’t seem to have enough well trained profilers to cover the country.  This is the one technology that, in at least the short term, seems to plug a very large hole in our security net.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ned &#8230; Simple question. </p>
<p>In order for pat downs to be effective as a fail safe when everything else fails, they have to be done 100% of the time. </p>
<p>Would you prefer a pat down to standing in front of a machine? Others on here have complained about time to clear security and security times. Which do you think is faster? Personally, I find that having someone look at a blurred image of me is less intrusive than being groped (Think about where the explosives were placed and where you would have to be felt for them to be detected. From photos I&#8217;ve seen a pat on the inside of the leg would not of detected them. The explosives didn&#8217;t end up there by accident.). </p>
<p>Dogs are a great tool but not 100% effective either. As a basic training company commander I coordinated with the MPs to run drug dog through my barracks every 10 weeks (once per cycle) to check for drugs. Afterwords, I let them use the barracks for training (ie they had one MP hide drugs in the building and then sent in the dogs). Lets just say that my confidence in dogs to be 100% effective was greatly shaken.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s be honest&#8230; While profiling is a great tool, the elected folks on the hill are never going to let it happen. There are too many negative press releases attached to it. All it takes is one public case and the folks on the hill will be holding hearings. (I&#8217;m sorry but profiling looks at the whole person so race, religion, age &amp; ethnic background are part of the equation.) By definition, using profiling will result in certain groups of people having more security checks. (I&#8217;d guess Muslim males ages 15 &#8211; 35 acting nervous would get the most scrutiny since that’s the profile of the attackers that made it on to planes. Muslim families acting nervous would probably be next since that’s who the UK stopped from bringing liquid explosives on to planes.)  How long after the 60 minutes reports that Muslim males get pulled aside for additional checks more often would Congress hold hearings? In addition, profiling is also more art than science. Israel has the advantage of a limited number of airports so covering them would seem to be an easier than covering every airport in the US with enough profilers to be effective. </p>
<p>The nice thing about back scatter technology is that its quick, more effective than metal detectors and doesn’t care about your background. This makes it the most politically safe technology to use for screening and can be used in conjunction with Ned’s suggestions. </p>
<p>All I want is a security system that keeps me safe. Period. Metal detectors don’t do that anymore (google ceramic knives) and go back to 9/11 (Granted onboard improvements make this a less likely avenue of attack). The intel system doesn’t seem to be up to doing it yet. We can all agree that TSA doesn’t seem to have enough well trained profilers to cover the country.  This is the one technology that, in at least the short term, seems to plug a very large hole in our security net.</p>
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		<title>By: Ned S. Levi</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tsas-nose-grows-as-they-explain-whole-body-scanners/comment-page-1/#comment-19076</link>
		<dc:creator>Ned S. Levi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 05:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.consumertraveler.com/?p=24175#comment-19076</guid>
		<description>Hi Joe and John,

As a contributor here, I think we&#039;ve presented many of the facts about &quot;full body screening,&quot; and you are right, we&#039;ve expressed our opinions on the subject too, once we learned the facts and presented them. Many of us believe this is an important issue for travelers, and we want to bring to the issues about &quot;full body screening&quot; and the scanning equipment to do it, into the open.

As far as the panty bomber goes, I personally doubt, along with many others, that a full body scan with one of these MMW scanners would have actually caught the guy. He had a very thin layer of the explosive, in a power form, sewn into his underpants. That minimized its density compared to having it in its more standard solid block form, and didn&#039;t create a bulge in the appearance of his underpants. Density and an odd physical appearance on the scan are how the agent reviewing the scan of the screen for a few moments determines if something&#039;s up. It&#039;s doubtful the panty bomber would have gotten caught by the scan.

Considering that intelligence on him failed, there were still 3 things which could have caught the panty bomber before he boarded the plane, 2 direct, 1 indirect. I&#039;ve been advocating each of these for a long time here at Consumer Traveler, and each mentioned was in my open letter to DHS Secretary Napolitano this past Monday, and my suggested new year&#039;s resolutions for DHS/TSA last week.

1. Use explosive sniffing dogs at security, and if rechecking at the gate, there as well.

2. A pat-down search would have likely discovered the panty bomb as the explosive power would have felt funny to an experienced agent. Of course, right now TSA doesn&#039;t have a reasonable procedure to determine who should be patted-down for a reasonable suspicion.

3. Perform psychological profiling (That&#039;s not racial, religious, or ethnic profiling) of passengers to seek out threats among them. Based on El Al&#039;s history of psychological profiling, and having discussed the idea with security people, I believe the panty bomber would have been identified by this method for secondary screening, which would have required a pat-down search, which would have caught him.

Guys, I&#039;m all for technology which will actually make us safer. To me, the &quot;full body scanner&quot; is all about TSA&#039;s security &quot;theater.&quot; It&#039;s for show, and it&#039;s way too expensive for that. We need to spend our money on security methods which work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joe and John,</p>
<p>As a contributor here, I think we&#8217;ve presented many of the facts about &#8220;full body screening,&#8221; and you are right, we&#8217;ve expressed our opinions on the subject too, once we learned the facts and presented them. Many of us believe this is an important issue for travelers, and we want to bring to the issues about &#8220;full body screening&#8221; and the scanning equipment to do it, into the open.</p>
<p>As far as the panty bomber goes, I personally doubt, along with many others, that a full body scan with one of these MMW scanners would have actually caught the guy. He had a very thin layer of the explosive, in a power form, sewn into his underpants. That minimized its density compared to having it in its more standard solid block form, and didn&#8217;t create a bulge in the appearance of his underpants. Density and an odd physical appearance on the scan are how the agent reviewing the scan of the screen for a few moments determines if something&#8217;s up. It&#8217;s doubtful the panty bomber would have gotten caught by the scan.</p>
<p>Considering that intelligence on him failed, there were still 3 things which could have caught the panty bomber before he boarded the plane, 2 direct, 1 indirect. I&#8217;ve been advocating each of these for a long time here at Consumer Traveler, and each mentioned was in my open letter to DHS Secretary Napolitano this past Monday, and my suggested new year&#8217;s resolutions for DHS/TSA last week.</p>
<p>1. Use explosive sniffing dogs at security, and if rechecking at the gate, there as well.</p>
<p>2. A pat-down search would have likely discovered the panty bomb as the explosive power would have felt funny to an experienced agent. Of course, right now TSA doesn&#8217;t have a reasonable procedure to determine who should be patted-down for a reasonable suspicion.</p>
<p>3. Perform psychological profiling (That&#8217;s not racial, religious, or ethnic profiling) of passengers to seek out threats among them. Based on El Al&#8217;s history of psychological profiling, and having discussed the idea with security people, I believe the panty bomber would have been identified by this method for secondary screening, which would have required a pat-down search, which would have caught him.</p>
<p>Guys, I&#8217;m all for technology which will actually make us safer. To me, the &#8220;full body scanner&#8221; is all about TSA&#8217;s security &#8220;theater.&#8221; It&#8217;s for show, and it&#8217;s way too expensive for that. We need to spend our money on security methods which work.</p>
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