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	<title>Comments on: Are exhausted pilots flying our planes? Pilots union says &#8220;yes&#8221;</title>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13129</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13129</guid>
		<description>Former pilot&#039;s sister and nurse practitioner said 

I personally knew of one FAA certified flight surgeon who never ever took a blood pressure on pilots, he just wrote in an acceptable reading number; another who because he had beginning dementia, was removed from a hospital medical staff roster but moved to another state and continued pioy physicals; and two in different states who my hbrother went to (recommended by pilots) who took my brother’s money, passed him on the physical and never touched him!
==============================================================

Informative POST, Sis/Nurse.

I fly with a pilot all the time who can barely walk.  Bad knees.  And as a result, he&#039;s also overweight.  Upon arrival into the hotel for the overnight, he requests a room close to the elevator so he doesnt have to walk far.  Further reducing his physical activity to exercise.  Eats airport food and breathes heavily when he walks.  I admire him alot and fear for his health.  I wonder how some of these pilots pass their physicals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Former pilot&#8217;s sister and nurse practitioner said </p>
<p>I personally knew of one FAA certified flight surgeon who never ever took a blood pressure on pilots, he just wrote in an acceptable reading number; another who because he had beginning dementia, was removed from a hospital medical staff roster but moved to another state and continued pioy physicals; and two in different states who my hbrother went to (recommended by pilots) who took my brother’s money, passed him on the physical and never touched him!<br />
==============================================================</p>
<p>Informative POST, Sis/Nurse.</p>
<p>I fly with a pilot all the time who can barely walk.  Bad knees.  And as a result, he&#8217;s also overweight.  Upon arrival into the hotel for the overnight, he requests a room close to the elevator so he doesnt have to walk far.  Further reducing his physical activity to exercise.  Eats airport food and breathes heavily when he walks.  I admire him alot and fear for his health.  I wonder how some of these pilots pass their physicals.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13117</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13117</guid>
		<description>On June 18th, 2009 at 8:22 am John said Timeout … I’m confused. Who negoiates labor contracts for the pilots with the airlines? Isn’t it the union? 
So as I read this statement, the union has done a disservice to it’s membership by allowing the “the complete absence of negotiated work rule improvements at many carriers.” Last time I checked, negoiating work rules is the job of the union not the FAA or the government. 
=========================================================

John, there are FAA mandated regulations in this industry.  One being MINIMUM REST for crews.  This is NOT something that is negotiated at the bargaining table.  All airline companies MUST abide by these FAA RULES.  Care to know or see that YOUR pilot worked a 13 hour day and got 9 hours on the ground in a hotel.  Subtract time going to the hotel, getting up 2 hours before departure and they equates to maybe 6 hours sleep.  It&#039;s starting your day, FATIQUED.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On June 18th, 2009 at 8:22 am John said Timeout … I’m confused. Who negoiates labor contracts for the pilots with the airlines? Isn’t it the union?<br />
So as I read this statement, the union has done a disservice to it’s membership by allowing the “the complete absence of negotiated work rule improvements at many carriers.” Last time I checked, negoiating work rules is the job of the union not the FAA or the government.<br />
=========================================================</p>
<p>John, there are FAA mandated regulations in this industry.  One being MINIMUM REST for crews.  This is NOT something that is negotiated at the bargaining table.  All airline companies MUST abide by these FAA RULES.  Care to know or see that YOUR pilot worked a 13 hour day and got 9 hours on the ground in a hotel.  Subtract time going to the hotel, getting up 2 hours before departure and they equates to maybe 6 hours sleep.  It&#8217;s starting your day, FATIQUED.</p>
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		<title>By: terry cummings</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13116</link>
		<dc:creator>terry cummings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jun 2009 02:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13116</guid>
		<description>i think what needs to be done is scrap the minimum &#039;rest&#039; period of 8 hours and substitute a period of free from all duty of at least 10 hours.  i cannot recall how many times i had the minimum that allowed me to perhaps 3 hours of sleep following a duty day of 15 hours followed by another duty day of 16 hours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think what needs to be done is scrap the minimum &#8216;rest&#8217; period of 8 hours and substitute a period of free from all duty of at least 10 hours.  i cannot recall how many times i had the minimum that allowed me to perhaps 3 hours of sleep following a duty day of 15 hours followed by another duty day of 16 hours.</p>
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		<title>By: Former pilot's sister and nurse practitioner</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13112</link>
		<dc:creator>Former pilot's sister and nurse practitioner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13112</guid>
		<description>My brother flew professionally for decades. He would come home on his first day off and sleep for almost 24 hours. The airline he worked for was good about honouring the rules but he and his colleagues were still exhausted most of the time. A different hotel room and bed every day, sometimes LOTS of noise in the hotel or outside, poor eating habits because of lack of available food (he always packed peanut butter sandwiches just in case) and almost no time to exercise and it all adds up to a VERY unhealthy lifestyle. 

We KNOW that night work, rotating work hours, and lack of rest promote the release of cheicals that promote heart disease. We in the aviation business also know that the FAA Flight Surgeon system is a bad joke- all too many of these MDs are easy to bribe (they do the work ofr the money-$125/exam CASH- not for the altruism of protecting passengers) or are retired or semi competent to begin with. 

I personally knew of one FAA certified flight surgeon who never ever took a blood pressure on pilots, he just wrote in an acceptable reading number; another who because he had beginning dementia, was removed from a hospital medical staff roster but moved to another state and continued pioy physicals; and two in different states who my hbrother  went to (recommended by pilots) who took my brother&#039;s  money, passed him on the physical  and never touched him!

The FAA only cares about the perception of safety - not the actual implementation of safe activities to prevent pilot fatigue or assure excellence in the flight surgeon program.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My brother flew professionally for decades. He would come home on his first day off and sleep for almost 24 hours. The airline he worked for was good about honouring the rules but he and his colleagues were still exhausted most of the time. A different hotel room and bed every day, sometimes LOTS of noise in the hotel or outside, poor eating habits because of lack of available food (he always packed peanut butter sandwiches just in case) and almost no time to exercise and it all adds up to a VERY unhealthy lifestyle. </p>
<p>We KNOW that night work, rotating work hours, and lack of rest promote the release of cheicals that promote heart disease. We in the aviation business also know that the FAA Flight Surgeon system is a bad joke- all too many of these MDs are easy to bribe (they do the work ofr the money-$125/exam CASH- not for the altruism of protecting passengers) or are retired or semi competent to begin with. </p>
<p>I personally knew of one FAA certified flight surgeon who never ever took a blood pressure on pilots, he just wrote in an acceptable reading number; another who because he had beginning dementia, was removed from a hospital medical staff roster but moved to another state and continued pioy physicals; and two in different states who my hbrother  went to (recommended by pilots) who took my brother&#8217;s  money, passed him on the physical  and never touched him!</p>
<p>The FAA only cares about the perception of safety &#8211; not the actual implementation of safe activities to prevent pilot fatigue or assure excellence in the flight surgeon program.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13109</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13109</guid>
		<description>Many of the practices that Capt. Prater is railing against have come about as a result of ALPA&#039;s negotiations on behalf of its members.  Most pilots want to fly as many hours as possible, in the shortest time possible.  That maximizes blocks of days off and makes commuting a practical way of life.  Lengthening rest periods would be more expensive for airlines (they would have to hire more pilots), but would also be resisted strenuously by pilots because it would significantly alter what they generally consider to be a very desirable lifestyle. 

ALPA has the power currently to put model flight, duty, and rest requirements into place if it was really serious about these items.  When push comes to shove, however, these issues always take a back seat to lifestyle and pay during negotiations.  It&#039;s all about the money.

The rest situation, as described by Capt. Prater, is accurate.  Federal regulations allow for these inadequate rest periods, and they do occur.  But they don&#039;t occur every day.  Pilot schedules tend to be mix of longer and shorter duty days and longer and shorter rest periods.  Pilots are generally not working 14-16 hour days every day, followed by the bogus 8 hours of rest called for by federal regulations.  

The problem of commuting pilots is very real, too.  Pilots deny themselves adequate rest rather than change their lifestyle.  Many do it on a regular basis.  Further compounding this is the way in which the FAA has turned a blind eye to conflicts with military reserve flying.  There are still siginifcant numbers of airline pilots who serve their country in military reserve units.  None of the military flight time is figured into any of the flight or duty time limitations for commercial pilots.  The FAA simply gives a knowing wink to the Department of Defense.  This arrangement allows reservists to fly all night back from war zones, land, change uniforms, and report for work at an airline with no rest -- and that&#039;s perfectly legal and acceptable to the FAA.  

Fatigue is a problem in the airline industry.  It needs to be addressed comprehensively.  Unfortunately, both airlines and pilot unions tend to be selective in the issues they want to address.  The FAA, an agency whose senior leadership (with the exception of the newly appointed J. Randolph Babbitt) is surpisingly devoid of any practical aviation experience, is ill-suited in both knowledge and temperment to promulgate regulations that will address the fatigue issues comprehensively.  

After reading some of the moronic comments made by the legislators being addressed by Capt. Prater, I suspect that they will do a lot of grand-standing, and perhaps introduce more ineffective and costly legislation.  We will likely wind up with complicated changes to the rules that will not make us safer, will cost a lot of money, and leave everyone unhappy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of the practices that Capt. Prater is railing against have come about as a result of ALPA&#8217;s negotiations on behalf of its members.  Most pilots want to fly as many hours as possible, in the shortest time possible.  That maximizes blocks of days off and makes commuting a practical way of life.  Lengthening rest periods would be more expensive for airlines (they would have to hire more pilots), but would also be resisted strenuously by pilots because it would significantly alter what they generally consider to be a very desirable lifestyle. </p>
<p>ALPA has the power currently to put model flight, duty, and rest requirements into place if it was really serious about these items.  When push comes to shove, however, these issues always take a back seat to lifestyle and pay during negotiations.  It&#8217;s all about the money.</p>
<p>The rest situation, as described by Capt. Prater, is accurate.  Federal regulations allow for these inadequate rest periods, and they do occur.  But they don&#8217;t occur every day.  Pilot schedules tend to be mix of longer and shorter duty days and longer and shorter rest periods.  Pilots are generally not working 14-16 hour days every day, followed by the bogus 8 hours of rest called for by federal regulations.  </p>
<p>The problem of commuting pilots is very real, too.  Pilots deny themselves adequate rest rather than change their lifestyle.  Many do it on a regular basis.  Further compounding this is the way in which the FAA has turned a blind eye to conflicts with military reserve flying.  There are still siginifcant numbers of airline pilots who serve their country in military reserve units.  None of the military flight time is figured into any of the flight or duty time limitations for commercial pilots.  The FAA simply gives a knowing wink to the Department of Defense.  This arrangement allows reservists to fly all night back from war zones, land, change uniforms, and report for work at an airline with no rest &#8212; and that&#8217;s perfectly legal and acceptable to the FAA.  </p>
<p>Fatigue is a problem in the airline industry.  It needs to be addressed comprehensively.  Unfortunately, both airlines and pilot unions tend to be selective in the issues they want to address.  The FAA, an agency whose senior leadership (with the exception of the newly appointed J. Randolph Babbitt) is surpisingly devoid of any practical aviation experience, is ill-suited in both knowledge and temperment to promulgate regulations that will address the fatigue issues comprehensively.  </p>
<p>After reading some of the moronic comments made by the legislators being addressed by Capt. Prater, I suspect that they will do a lot of grand-standing, and perhaps introduce more ineffective and costly legislation.  We will likely wind up with complicated changes to the rules that will not make us safer, will cost a lot of money, and leave everyone unhappy.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13099</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13099</guid>
		<description>Hours of service rules are complecated with severe penalties for carriers for violations.  I know the rules for railroads and the way the rules are described in the article just don&#039;t ring true to the way I suspect the actual FAA hours of service rules are written.  There may be some fatigue issues but it sounds like the pilots union representative is presenting a skewed perspective of the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hours of service rules are complecated with severe penalties for carriers for violations.  I know the rules for railroads and the way the rules are described in the article just don&#8217;t ring true to the way I suspect the actual FAA hours of service rules are written.  There may be some fatigue issues but it sounds like the pilots union representative is presenting a skewed perspective of the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: LeeAnne</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13098</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeAnne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13098</guid>
		<description>What a timely article...on the same day that I read that a Continental pilot just DIED IN FLIGHT!  

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_us/us_pilot_dies

Hmmm...can&#039;t help but wonder if fatigue had anything to do with it.  He was, after all, 61 years old.  How many people in their 60&#039;s can work for 20 hours straight on 4 hours sleep?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a timely article&#8230;on the same day that I read that a Continental pilot just DIED IN FLIGHT!  </p>
<p><a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_us/us_pilot_dies" rel="nofollow">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090618/ap_on_re_us/us_pilot_dies</a></p>
<p>Hmmm&#8230;can&#8217;t help but wonder if fatigue had anything to do with it.  He was, after all, 61 years old.  How many people in their 60&#8217;s can work for 20 hours straight on 4 hours sleep?</p>
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		<title>By: Frank</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13094</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13094</guid>
		<description>This elimination of the fatigue protections once provided by negotiated work rules that were developed over decades of experience at most established air carriers means that today, for more and more pilots, the bare minimum protections afforded by the FAA flight and rest regulations have become a daily way of life. 
========================================================

Now, you know why airline employees have such a contentious relationship with management.  One interesting note here is that now that the pilot retirement age has been changed to 65, I wonder if there will be a correlation between age and the acumulative effects of LACK OF SLEEP (not reduced sleep).  Furthermore, the MINIMUM REST PERIOD used to be a rare occurrence decades ago, nowadays, it&#039;s common.  Nice to know that the FAA is allowing the airline industry to sidestep the crew&#039;s important ADEQUATE rest period in the name of profits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This elimination of the fatigue protections once provided by negotiated work rules that were developed over decades of experience at most established air carriers means that today, for more and more pilots, the bare minimum protections afforded by the FAA flight and rest regulations have become a daily way of life.<br />
========================================================</p>
<p>Now, you know why airline employees have such a contentious relationship with management.  One interesting note here is that now that the pilot retirement age has been changed to 65, I wonder if there will be a correlation between age and the acumulative effects of LACK OF SLEEP (not reduced sleep).  Furthermore, the MINIMUM REST PERIOD used to be a rare occurrence decades ago, nowadays, it&#8217;s common.  Nice to know that the FAA is allowing the airline industry to sidestep the crew&#8217;s important ADEQUATE rest period in the name of profits.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.consumertraveler.com/today/tired-pilots/comment-page-1/#comment-13090</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.tripso.com/?p=15632#comment-13090</guid>
		<description>Timeout ... I&#039;m confused. Who negoiates labor contracts for the pilots with the airlines? Isn&#039;t it the union? 

So as I read this statement, the union has done a disservice to it&#039;s membership by allowing the &quot;the complete absence of negotiated work rule improvements at many carriers.&quot; Last time I checked, negoiating work rules is the job of the union not the FAA or the government. 

Furthermore, I&#039;m not sure that the pilots would want the change since the current financial situation has &quot;[forced] pilots to accept even more flights or face their own financial crisis.&quot; Wouldn&#039;t a reduction in available flight hours result in an situation that results in a &quot;financial crisis&quot; for pilots? Last time I checked, financial stress increases not decreases fatigue. 

When I read the last paragraph it sounds to me that the union has failed their membership. Pilots are being asked to do &quot;more with less&quot; which has become the mantra for most US businesses. Having failed to negoiate better work rules at the bargining table, the union is now looking for the FAA to do their bargining for them. 

Interestingly, I didn&#039;t see any studies or NTSB reports quoted. Wouldn&#039;t that be a strong argument? &quot;The NTSB recommended in XXXX after the crash of flight XXXXX resulting from pilot fatigue that the FAA reduce pilot work days to X hours per day.&quot; 

My neighbor is a PIC (captain) for a regional airline. Her airline allots schedules through a &quot;bidding&quot; process. She intentional bids for ugly schedules like those mentioned in the article in order to spend more time at home. As the primary bread winner in her house, she has to fly x hours a month to pay bills. She doesn&#039;t agree with external regulation of her hours because they would force her to spend more time away from her daughters to make the same amount of money.

So this seems to me to be more of an issue of pilots work rules changing, like every other employee in corporate america, and being asked to do more with less than an issue of safety. Maybe the unions should take their fight to the bargining table. At the same time, based on their statement and the talking with my neighbor, pilots don&#039;t seem to want a change in work rules that lowers their income for a given time away from home.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timeout &#8230; I&#8217;m confused. Who negoiates labor contracts for the pilots with the airlines? Isn&#8217;t it the union? </p>
<p>So as I read this statement, the union has done a disservice to it&#8217;s membership by allowing the &#8220;the complete absence of negotiated work rule improvements at many carriers.&#8221; Last time I checked, negoiating work rules is the job of the union not the FAA or the government. </p>
<p>Furthermore, I&#8217;m not sure that the pilots would want the change since the current financial situation has &#8220;[forced] pilots to accept even more flights or face their own financial crisis.&#8221; Wouldn&#8217;t a reduction in available flight hours result in an situation that results in a &#8220;financial crisis&#8221; for pilots? Last time I checked, financial stress increases not decreases fatigue. </p>
<p>When I read the last paragraph it sounds to me that the union has failed their membership. Pilots are being asked to do &#8220;more with less&#8221; which has become the mantra for most US businesses. Having failed to negoiate better work rules at the bargining table, the union is now looking for the FAA to do their bargining for them. </p>
<p>Interestingly, I didn&#8217;t see any studies or NTSB reports quoted. Wouldn&#8217;t that be a strong argument? &#8220;The NTSB recommended in XXXX after the crash of flight XXXXX resulting from pilot fatigue that the FAA reduce pilot work days to X hours per day.&#8221; </p>
<p>My neighbor is a PIC (captain) for a regional airline. Her airline allots schedules through a &#8220;bidding&#8221; process. She intentional bids for ugly schedules like those mentioned in the article in order to spend more time at home. As the primary bread winner in her house, she has to fly x hours a month to pay bills. She doesn&#8217;t agree with external regulation of her hours because they would force her to spend more time away from her daughters to make the same amount of money.</p>
<p>So this seems to me to be more of an issue of pilots work rules changing, like every other employee in corporate america, and being asked to do more with less than an issue of safety. Maybe the unions should take their fight to the bargining table. At the same time, based on their statement and the talking with my neighbor, pilots don&#8217;t seem to want a change in work rules that lowers their income for a given time away from home.</p>
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