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Old 10-20-2010, 07:22 AM   #1
Eileen Sellers
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39749058/ns/us_news-life/

It amazes me that anyone would consider the Constitution of the United States of America, being the document to govern her citizens and legal residents, would in anyway be used to grant rights to illegals entities or the children of illegal entities.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:53 AM   #2
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Perhaps many "consider" the Constitution of the United States of America, as a document which grants rights to the children of illegal aliens, if those children are born in the USA, because it does.

The 14th amendment states, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

The term "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" refers to whether or not a person is immune to US and State jurisdiction under the Constitution and laws of the US, such as registered diplomats. Other foreign nationals, whether legal or illegal, who are physically in the US, are subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

For anyone in Arizona (referring to the article to which you linked) to say they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US, and therefore their offspring born in the US are not citizens is absurd. Everyday, Arizona arrests, imprisons, and convicts illegal aliens of crimes. Therefore, by exercising their jurisdiction, Arizona has proven that illegal aliens are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."

Now if you want to disagree with that, great, but please show a specific example of an illegal alien, other than an alien in this country with diplomatic immunity, who isn't subject to jurisdiction in the US. Show a specific example of a typical Mexican, for example, who came to the US to work who isn't subject to US law.

If you can't, don't bother to disagree please.

That being said I would like to see us stop granting citizenship to everyone born in the US (other than children of diplomats) and am in favor of a Constitution amendment which would do just that. I am not in favor of a state or federal law which would be passed to do the same because it would be a colossal waste of time to have to go through the court system to have it eventually declared unconstitutional, which it would be.

I think the vast majority of US citizens are in favor of a Constitutional amendment granting citizenship to children born on US soil only to: born to US citizens and legal permanent residents. This would stop children born on US soil from becoming citizens through birth if their parents are in the US illegally, by being tourists, by being here legally through a student or work visa, etc. Children having one parent being a US citizen would be a US citizen no matter where they are born. This just has to be done through an amendment to the Constitution.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:59 AM   #3
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The 14th Amendment has worked fine since the 1860s. I would rather have it left alone than have a bunch of state lawmaking yahoos tinkering with it out of fear of Louis Gohmert's "terror babies."
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Old 10-20-2010, 01:14 PM   #4
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I'm not in favor of it. If you manage immigration right, there is no need. I dont think the amendment is broken, the underlying system is.
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Old 10-20-2010, 03:20 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by rampo View Post
The 14th Amendment has worked fine since the 1860s.
I think it makes a difference in what worked when we had an open immigration policy as we did in 1860 versus what can work now.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:34 PM   #6
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I don't think the 14th amendment, section 1, has ever worked, except to do the one thing it was designed to do; overrule the dreadful Supreme Court decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857), which held that blacks could not be citizens of the United States.

I don't think that Congress or the States which ratified the amendment ever envisioned the current circumstances.

Personally, I don't believe that illegal immigration is generally the fault of Mexico, Guatemala or any nation, except ourselves, the good old USA. We have created our own problem by creating laws which don't work, and laws which aren't enforced.

Illegal aliens come to the US primarily for 2 reasons, to have offspring "born in the USA" so they are automatically US citizens, and to find jobs. Today there is a 3rd reason that brings in large numbers of Mexicans; safety. Unfortunately, we can't make Mexico safe for its citizens. The Mexican government must do that.

We can take away the impetus for the other two main causes of illegal immigration.

First, we can enforce current law that says employers can't hire illegal aliens. (Note I'm not calling them illegal immigrants, as that's not what the are. The choice of words has serious implications, and I'm choosing to call them what they are; illegal aliens - aliens which are in the country illegally.) It's far easier to stop employers from illegally hiring illegal aliens than going after millions of illegal aliens, and it would be far more effective.

Second, if we eliminate US citizenship for people born of illegal aliens in the US, then that eliminates the 2nd major cause of illegal aliens coming to the US.

Eliminating jobs for illegals, and citizenship of illegals' offspring will take away most of the reasons most aliens illegally enter the US. That would greatly and peaceably eliminate most the the illegal alien problem in the US.

I like immigration, legal immigration, that is. It's how I came to be an American. My direct forebearers were legal immigrants in the 18th century. The rest of my family legally immigrated here in the 19th and 20th centuries.

As to citizenship, I generally like the French citizenship rules, but even there I would not embrace them completely.

I would put in place the following citizenship rules.

Children born anywhere to at least one parent who is a US citizen automatically acquire US citizenship at birth.

Children born in the US to alien parents may acquire US citizenship:
  • at birth, if stateless
  • at age 18 if a resident of the US with at least 5 years residence since age 11, born to a permanent legal resident alien of the US, and the person requests citizenship once they have attained the age of 18
  • at age 13, if one of the child's parents who was a legal resident alien becomes a naturalized US citizen
Children born in the US to alien parents may not acquire US citizenship by birth, but may at age 18 or older become naturalized US citizens if they meet all the requirements for the same, if when born in the US:
  • their parents were in the US illegally
  • one of their parents were diplomats in the US or assigned to the US
  • their parent(s) were tourists in the US, with or without a visa
  • their parent(s) were foreign students legally in the US
  • their parents(s) were foreign workers on a legal visa in the US
  • their parent(s) weren't permanent legal resident aliens.
In other words, the parents have to be in the US legally, as permanent residents, or be US citizens for natural born American status to be granted their offspring born in the US. Moreover, that status generally must be requested for a child of a legal resident alien.
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Old 10-20-2010, 05:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
I don't think that Congress or the States which ratified the amendment ever envisioned the current circumstances
.

They didn't, they couldn't. There was no such thing as an illegal immigrant at that time. Which is why I say, how could anyone think that the Constitution was meant to extend citizens rights to illegals or the the children of illegals. Nonetheless, an ammendment seems to be necessary to clarify the point.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:12 PM   #8
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Your proposal is similar to what I envision as a solution with one addition:

Children born of illegal alien parents on US Soil shall, at the discretion of the federal judicial district overseeing such location, shall be eligible for the immediate issuance of a 'green card' where the judge determines that it would be harmful to the child if repatriation were to occur.

It's an important loophole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ned View Post
I don't think the 14th amendment, section 1, has ever worked, except to do the one thing it was designed to do; overrule the dreadful Supreme Court decision in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857), which held that blacks could not be citizens of the United States.

I don't think that Congress or the States which ratified the amendment ever envisioned the current circumstances.

Personally, I don't believe that illegal immigration is generally the fault of Mexico, Guatemala or any nation, except ourselves, the good old USA. We have created our own problem by creating laws which don't work, and laws which aren't enforced.

Illegal aliens come to the US primarily for 2 reasons, to have offspring "born in the USA" so they are automatically US citizens, and to find jobs. Today there is a 3rd reason that brings in large numbers of Mexicans; safety. Unfortunately, we can't make Mexico safe for its citizens. The Mexican government must do that.

We can take away the impetus for the other two main causes of illegal immigration.

First, we can enforce current law that says employers can't hire illegal aliens. (Note I'm not calling them illegal immigrants, as that's not what the are. The choice of words has serious implications, and I'm choosing to call them what they are; illegal aliens - aliens which are in the country illegally.) It's far easier to stop employers from illegally hiring illegal aliens than going after millions of illegal aliens, and it would be far more effective.

Second, if we eliminate US citizenship for people born of illegal aliens in the US, then that eliminates the 2nd major cause of illegal aliens coming to the US.

Eliminating jobs for illegals, and citizenship of illegals' offspring will take away most of the reasons most aliens illegally enter the US. That would greatly and peaceably eliminate most the the illegal alien problem in the US.

I like immigration, legal immigration, that is. It's how I came to be an American. My direct forebearers were legal immigrants in the 18th century. The rest of my family legally immigrated here in the 19th and 20th centuries.

As to citizenship, I generally like the French citizenship rules, but even there I would not embrace them completely.

I would put in place the following citizenship rules.

Children born anywhere to at least one parent who is a US citizen automatically acquire US citizenship at birth.

Children born in the US to alien parents may acquire US citizenship:
  • at birth, if stateless
  • at age 18 if a resident of the US with at least 5 years residence since age 11, born to a permanent legal resident alien of the US, and the person requests citizenship once they have attained the age of 18
  • at age 13, if one of the child's parents who was a legal resident alien becomes a naturalized US citizen
Children born in the US to alien parents may not acquire US citizenship by birth, but may at age 18 or older become naturalized US citizens if they meet all the requirements for the same, if when born in the US:
  • their parents were in the US illegally
  • one of their parents were diplomats in the US or assigned to the US
  • their parent(s) were tourists in the US, with or without a visa
  • their parent(s) were foreign students legally in the US
  • their parents(s) were foreign workers on a legal visa in the US
  • their parent(s) weren't permanent legal resident aliens.
In other words, the parents have to be in the US legally, as permanent residents, or be US citizens for natural born American status to be granted their offspring born in the US. Moreover, that status generally must be requested for a child of a legal resident alien.
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Old 10-20-2010, 10:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loonbeam View Post
Your proposal is similar to what I envision as a solution with one addition:

Children born of illegal alien parents on US Soil shall, at the discretion of the federal judicial district overseeing such location, shall be eligible for the immediate issuance of a 'green card' where the judge determines that it would be harmful to the child if repatriation were to occur.

It's an important loophole.
L., I would respectfully disagree about putting that in an amendment. I would think that it wouldn't be necessary anyway. A guardian ad litem can be appointed by the court for the child and can petition for refugee status for the child. If granted due to circumstances at home, they would issue a green card.
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