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greenearth
09-18-2008, 01:57 PM
As a woman who believes that it is her right to chose and her niece's right to chose and their daughters in the future right to chose, I oppose a woman that will take those rights away from them.
As an environmenalist and a animal lover and vegan I oppose anyone who believes that aerial wolf hunts are way to "cull" animals. As well as take an species such as the Polar Bear off the threatened list because there is some land there to drill for oil. We must wean ourselves off of oil and not depend on it even if it comes from our own country.

I received this email and thought I would pass it on to others that are interested. And those that are not I hope this does not offend you.



I do not want to make assumptions about your political choices. However, I regard each of you as a strong, independent woman who cares about our future. Please consider sharing a short message with your views to [email protected]


Friends, compatriots, fellow-lamenters, We are writing to you because of the fury and dread we have felt since the announcement of Sarah Palin as the Vice-Presidential candidate for the Republican Party. We believe that this terrible decision has surpassed mere partisanship, and that it is a dangerous farce-on the part of a pandering and rudderless Presidential candidate-that has a real possibility of becoming fact. Perhaps like us, as American women, you share the fear of what Ms. Palin and her professed beliefs and proven record could lead to for ourselves and for our present or future daughters. To date, she is against sex education, birth control, the pro-choice platform, environmental protection, alternative energy development, freedom of speech (as mayor she wanted to ban books and attempted to fire the librarian who stood against her), gun control, the separation of church and state, and polar bears. To say nothing of her complete lack of real preparation to become the second-most-powerful person on the planet. We want to clarify that we are not against Sarah Palin as a woman, a mother, or, for that matter, a parent of a pregnant teenager, but solely as a rash, incompetent, and all together devastating choice for Vice President. Ms. Palin's political views are in every way a slap in the face to the accomplishments that our mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers so fiercely fought for, and that we've so demonstrably benefited from. First and foremost, Ms. Palin does not represent us. She does not demonstrate or uphold our interests as American women. It is presumed that the inclusion of a woman on the Republican ticket could win over women voters. We want to disagree, publicly. Therefore, we invite you to reply here ([email protected] ) with a short, succinct message about why you, as a woman living in this country, do not support this candidate as second-in-command for our nation. Please include your name (last initial is fine), age, and place of residence. We will post your responses on a blog called "Women Against Sarah Palin," which we intend to publicize as widely as possible. Please send us your reply at your earliest convenience-the greater the volume of responses we receive, the stronger our message will be. Thank you for your time and action. VIVA! Sincerely, Quinn Latimer and Lyra Kilston New York, NY [email protected] **PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY! If you send this to 20 women in the next hour, you could be blessed with a country that takes your concerns seriously. Stranger things have happened. -- The earth is not finished, but is now being, and will forevermore be re-made. - C. R. an Hise (1898)

karenbjo
09-18-2008, 02:22 PM
I also received this email this morning.
It says it in a nutshell for me, count me as one of the women against Palin, and the Mc Pain ticket.

vacationagent
09-18-2008, 02:58 PM
I'm a woman saying "no" to Sarah Palin, too. I don't subscribe to a single thing that she supports. Nothing.

jjjenny
09-18-2008, 03:05 PM
Are these proven facts in the email?

bodega
09-18-2008, 03:08 PM
I just heard that NOW is endorsing Barack Obama. Very interesting!!

TravelLisa
09-18-2008, 03:09 PM
Eve Ensler, the American playwright, performer, feminist and activist best
known for "The Vagina Monologues", wrote the following about Sarah Palin:

Drill, Drill, Drill

I am having Sarah Palin nightmares. I dreamt last night that she was a
member of a club where they rode snowmobiles and wore the claws of drowned
and starved polar bears around their necks. I have a particular thing for
Polar Bears. Maybe it's their snowy whiteness or their bigness or the fact
that they live in the arctic or that I have never seen one in person or
touched one. Maybe it is the fact that they live so comfortably on ice.
Whatever it is, I need the polar bears.

I don't like raging at women. I am a Feminist and have spent my life trying
to build community, help empower women and stop violence against them. It is
hard to write about Sarah Palin. This is why the Sarah Palin choice was all
the more insidious and cynical. The people who made this choice count on the
goodness and solidarity of Feminists.

But everything Sarah Palin believes in and practices is antithetical to
Feminism which for me is part of one story -- connected to saving the earth,
ending racism, empowering women, giving young girls options, opening our
minds, deepening tolerance, and ending violence and war.

I believe that the McCain/Palin ticket is one of the most dangerous choices
of my lifetime, and should this country chose those candidates the fall-out
may be so great, the destruction so vast in so many areas that America may
never recover. But what is equally disturbing is the impact that duo would
have on the rest of the world. Unfortunately, this is not a joke. In my
lifetime I have seen the clownish, the inept, the bizarre be elected to the
presidency with regularity.

Sarah Palin does not believe in evolution. I take this as a metaphor. In her
world and the world of Fundamentalists nothing changes or gets better or
evolves. She does not believe in global warming. The melting of the arctic,
the storms that are destroying our cities, the pollution and rise of
cancers, are all part of God's plan. She is fighting to take the polar
bears off the endangered species list. The earth, in Palin's view, is here
to be taken and plundered. The wolves and the bears are here to be shot and
plundered. The oil is here to be taken and plundered. Iraq is here to be
taken and plundered. As she said herself of the Iraqi war, "It was a task
from God."

Sarah Palin does not believe in abortion. She does not believe women who are
raped and incested and ripped open against their will should have a right to
determine whether they have their rapist's baby or not.

She obviously does not believe in sex education or birth control. I imagine
her daughter was practicing abstinence and we know how many babies that
makes.

Sarah Palin does not much believe in thinking. From what I gather she has
tried to ban books from the library, has a tendency to dispense with people
who think independently. She cannot tolerate an environment of ambiguity and
difference. This is a woman who could and might very well be the next
president of the United States. She would govern one of the most diverse
populations on the earth.

Sarah believes in guns. She has her own custom Austrian hunting rifle. She
has been known to kill 40 caribou at a clip. She has shot hundreds of wolves
from the air.

Sarah believes in God. That is of course her right, her private right. But
when God and Guns come together in the public sector, when war is declared
in God's name, when the rights of women are denied in his name, that is the
end of separation of church and state and the undoing of everything America
has ever tried to be.

I write to my sisters. I write because I believe we hold this election in
our hands. This vote is a vote that will determine the future not just of
the U.S., but of the planet. It will determine whether we create policies to
save the earth or make it forever uninhabitable for humans. It will
determine whether we move towards dialogue and diplomacy in the world or
whether we escalate violence through invasion, undermining and attack. It
will determine whether we go for oil, strip mining, coal burning or invest
our money in alternatives that will free us from dependency and destruction.
It will determine if money gets spent on education and healthcare or
whether we build more and more methods of killing. It will determine whether
America is a free open tolerant society or a closed place of fear,
fundamentalism and aggression.

If the Polar Bears don't move you to go and do everything in your power to
get Obama elected then consider the chant that filled the hall after Palin
spoke at the RNC, "Drill Drill Drill." I think of teeth when I think of
drills. I think of rape. I think of destruction. I think of domination. I
think of military exercises that force mindless repetition, emptying the
brain of analysis, doubt, ambiguity or dissent. I think of pain.

Do we want a future of drilling? More holes in the ozone, in the floor of
the sea, more holes in our thinking, in the trust between nations and
peoples, more holes in the fabric of this precious thing we call life?

Eve Ensler
September 5, 2008

greenearth
09-18-2008, 04:36 PM
Are these proven facts in the email?

Hi Jenny yes this are facts but if you want to make sure I would suggest snopes.com or better yet factcheck.org

Ned
09-18-2008, 05:00 PM
Are these proven facts in the email?

If you are referring to, "To date, she is against sex education, birth control, the pro-choice platform, environmental protection, alternative energy development, freedom of speech (as mayor she wanted to ban books and attempted to fire the librarian who stood against her), gun control, the separation of church and state, and polar bears. To say nothing of her complete lack of real preparation to become the second-most-powerful person on the planet." there is ample evidence that these are all generally true, with the exception of the book banning. While she inquired about book banning she never followed through and their is conflicting stories about the attempted firing of the librarian.

Nevertheless,


She has stated publicly that she is "pro-life" and the only contraception she believes in is abstinence, although I'd bet the rhythm method would be ok.
She has stated her opposition to sex education in the public schools.
She has clearly indicated that environmental protection is not high on her list as she has pushed for oil drilling in environmentally fragile areas of Alaska and has tried to stop the polar bear from being on the list of endangered species since that would make it more difficult to drill for oil in Alaska.
She has not supported and energy development other than energy from petroleum, natural gas, and coal to date, and supports the Republicans in their desire to "drill, drill, drill" rather than use other sources of energy to the extent possible with strong development money and tax incentives.
She is a life member of the NRA and supports its position that no guns should be banned from ownerships or regulated in any way which would make them less available.
She has clearly shown she doesn't believe in the strict separation of church and state in her utterances about faith based organizations using tax dollars without regard to them proselytizing while using the tax money. As governor of Alaska she signed a proclamation which declared a week in October 2007 as "Christian Heritage Week" in Alaska. Furthermore she supports clergy endorsing candidates for office from the pulpit, despite IRS tax-exemption regulations that prohibit all 501(c)(3) organizations from political campaigning.

I have to run, but I think this shows the statement generally true.

greenearth
09-18-2008, 05:16 PM
I just checked on Factcheck.org on the book banning for some clarification
Not a Book Burner

One accusation claims then-Mayor Palin threatened to fire Wasilla’s librarian for refusing to ban books from the town library. Some versions of the rumor come complete with a list of the books that Palin allegedly attempted to ban. Actually, Palin never asked that books be banned; no books were actually banned; and many of the books on the list that Palin supposedly wanted to censor weren't even in print at the time, proving that the list is a fabrication. The librarian was fired, but was told only that Palin felt she didn’t support her. She was re-hired the next day. The librarian never claimed that Palin threatened outright to fire her for refusing to ban books.

It’s true that Palin did raise the issue with Mary Ellen Emmons, Wasilla’s librarian, on at least two occasions, three in some versions. Emmons flatly stated her opposition each time. But, as the Mat-Su Valley Frontiersman (Wasilla’s local paper) reported at the time, Palin asked general questions (http://www.frontiersman.com/articles/2008/09/05/breaking_news/doc48c1c8a60d6d9379155484.txt) about what Emmons would say if Palin requested that a book be banned. According to Emmons, Palin "was asking me how I would deal with her saying a book can't be in the library." Emmons reported that Palin pressed the issue, asking whether Emmons' position would change if residents were picketing the library. Wasilla resident Anne Kilkenny, who was at the meeting, corroborates Emmons' story, telling (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-palin-book_bdsep07,0,3537053.story) the Chicago Tribune that "Sarah said to Mary Ellen, 'What would your response be if I asked you to remove some books from the collection?' "

Palin characterized the exchange differently, initially volunteering the episode as an example of discussions with city employees about following her administration's agenda. Palin described her questions to Emmons as “rhetorical,” noting that her questions "were asked in the context of professionalism regarding the library policy that is in place in our city." Actually, true rhetorical questions have implied answers (e.g., “Who do you think you are?”), so Palin probably meant to describe her questions as hypothetical or theoretical. We can't read minds, so it is impossible for us to know whether or not Palin may actually have wanted to ban books from the library or whether she simply wanted to know how her new employees would respond to an instruction from their boss. It is worth noting that, in an update, the Frontiersman points out that no book was ever banned from the library’s shelves.

Palin initially requested Emmons’ resignation, along with those of Wasilla’s other department heads, in October 1996. Palin described the requests as a loyalty test and allowed all of them (except one, whose department she was eliminating) to retain their positions. But in January 1997, Palin fired Emmons, along with the police chief. According to the Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-palin-book_bdsep07,0,3537053.story), Palin did not list censorship as a reason for Emmons’ firing, but said she didn’t feel she had Emmons’ support. The decision caused “a stir” in the small town, according to a newspaper account at the time (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/510219.html). According to a widely circulated e-mail from Kilkenny, “city residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter.”

As we’ve noted, Palin did not attempt to ban any library books. We don’t know if Emmons’ resistance to Palin’s questions about possible censorship had anything to do with Emmons’ firing. And we have no idea if the protests had any impact on Palin at all. There simply isn’t any evidence that we can find either way. Palin did re-hire Emmons (http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/510219.html) the following day, saying that she now felt she had the librarian’s backing. Emmons continued to serve as librarian until August 1999, when the Chicago Tribune reports that she resigned.

So what about that list of books targeted for banning, which according to one widely e-mailed version was taken “from the official minutes of the Wasilla Library Board”? If it was, the library board should take up fortune telling. The list includes the first four Harry Potter books, none of which had been published at the time of the Palin-Emmons conversations. The first wasn't published until 1998. In fact, the list is a simple cut-and-paste job, snatched (complete with typos and the occasional incorrect title) from the Florida Institute of Technology library Web page, (http://www.lib.fit.edu/pubs/librarydisplays/bannedbooks/website.htm) which presents the list as “Books banned at one time or another in the United States.”

Update, Sept. 9: We have revised this section dealing with accusations that Palin wanted to ban books from Wasilla's library to include more detail about what transpired at the time.

Loonbeam
09-18-2008, 06:37 PM
With about an hours work, I can document about 90% of them. I haven't, but will if needed.

Are these proven facts in the email?

Loonbeam
09-18-2008, 06:44 PM
True, the book banning per se is not true, but here is my take on that.. The presumption by factcheck is...

"Palin described the requests as a loyalty test and allowed all of them (except one, whose department she was eliminating) to retain their positions. "

Sorry, not buying that. If you are going to someone and asking them how to remove 'or ban' books from the library, you have that thought in your head. The fact that she fired the person then hired her back after public outcry negates the loyalty test argument to me, if it truly was to see who was loyal, you don't higher them back. Although I can't prove this claim (hence why I said 90% above), I still think she had that in mind.

And you know what? Even if she didn't, the concept of an administrative assistance needing to pass an ideological loyalty test to retain your job is still morally repugnant to me. A GOOD manager knows that he or she needs people below them who are not afraid to stand up when they make a bad decision.

If you would like to see the firsthand effects of hiring based on loyalty take a look at the Department of Justice right now.

greenearth
09-18-2008, 08:43 PM
True, the book banning per se is not true, but here is my take on that.. The presumption by factcheck is...

"Palin described the requests as a loyalty test and allowed all of them (except one, whose department she was eliminating) to retain their positions. "

Sorry, not buying that. If you are going to someone and asking them how to remove 'or ban' books from the library, you have that thought in your head. The fact that she fired the person then hired her back after public outcry negates the loyalty test argument to me, if it truly was to see who was loyal, you don't higher them back. Although I can't prove this claim (hence why I said 90% above), I still think she had that in mind.

And you know what? Even if she didn't, the concept of an administrative assistance needing to pass an ideological loyalty test to retain your job is still morally repugnant to me. A GOOD manager knows that he or she needs people below them who are not afraid to stand up when they make a bad decision.

If you would like to see the firsthand effects of hiring based on loyalty take a look at the Department of Justice right now.



Hey I agree. I just had gotten that from Factcheck.org

Ned
09-18-2008, 09:01 PM
Talk about a post needing a rep click (but it wouldn't let me do it). You said it really well. Thanks.

Even without the book banning, Palin is not a person I could ever vote for in any capacity. Aggregately, her political and personal positions about politics, the country and life in general are so far from mine as to be from another dimension.

True, the book banning per se is not true, but here is my take on that.. The presumption by factcheck is...

"Palin described the requests as a loyalty test and allowed all of them (except one, whose department she was eliminating) to retain their positions. "

Sorry, not buying that. If you are going to someone and asking them how to remove 'or ban' books from the library, you have that thought in your head. The fact that she fired the person then hired her back after public outcry negates the loyalty test argument to me, if it truly was to see who was loyal, you don't higher them back. Although I can't prove this claim (hence why I said 90% above), I still think she had that in mind.

And you know what? Even if she didn't, the concept of an administrative assistance needing to pass an ideological loyalty test to retain your job is still morally repugnant to me. A GOOD manager knows that he or she needs people below them who are not afraid to stand up when they make a bad decision.

If you would like to see the firsthand effects of hiring based on loyalty take a look at the Department of Justice right now.

NW CTC
09-18-2008, 11:46 PM
Thanks for bringing up the topic. I'm heartened by the number of articulate, informed responses.

I'm totally put off by Palin and resent that a politico who should have remained obscure has been elevated to the national spotlight in such a fashion.

I firmly believe that what we're seeing now is only the tip of the iceberg as far as her stubborn, mean and petty style goes. Does it say anything that her husband is simply refusing to obey the subpeona he received?

msnovtue
09-19-2008, 07:57 AM
There's been an awful lot of mixed-up, wrong, and misleading info put out about Ms. Palin. But, as Ned listed, there's a definite amount of truth there, too....

And frankly, that truth scares the hell out of me.:eek:

Eileen Sellers
09-19-2008, 08:31 AM
I like her. I don't agree with all her positions, like abortion, but then I don't agree with most politicians. So if I were to not vote according to what positions I don't like, it would leave them all out. I prefer her as Vice President, than Obama as President.

jjjenny
09-19-2008, 09:36 AM
The reason I had asked if this was proven is because I had read an email earlier this week saying saying many of the same things and wasn't sure if it was all correct.

Last week I watched a news documentary about her, I couldn't even tell you what it was, and it was all good. A day later I watched one that made her look bad.

There are many things I don't like about her and shudder to think that if McCain became president and something happened to him, she would be next in line to run the country.

Loonbeam
09-19-2008, 09:41 AM
I've actually always thought they should be truly separate elections (technically they are in some states)..


I like her. I don't agree with all her positions, like abortion, but then I don't agree with most politicians. So if I were to not vote according to what positions I don't like, it would leave them all out. I prefer her as Vice President, than Obama as President.

Loonbeam
09-19-2008, 09:44 AM
As has been brought up in another thread, if ever there was an election that demanded voters do their own research, this is it. Especially in the case of Palin, where actual non-spin coming out of the campaign is thin.




The reason I had asked if this was proven is because I had read an email earlier this week saying saying many of the same things and wasn't sure if it was all correct.

Last week I watched a news documentary about her, I couldn't even tell you what it was, and it was all good. A day later I watched one that made her look bad.

There are many things I don't like about her and shudder to think that if McCain became president and something happened to him, she would be next in line to run the country.

greenearth
09-19-2008, 12:16 PM
I like her. I don't agree with all her positions, like abortion, but then I don't agree with most politicians. So if I were to not vote according to what positions I don't like, it would leave them all out. I prefer her as Vice President, than Obama as President.
Why do you prefer her over Obama? Just curious. I am trying to get a pulse on why people like her.

karenbjo
09-19-2008, 03:25 PM
Yeah, what Greenearth said. I am interested in knowing what women find likeable about her too.
I cannot for the life of me understand why women would want to imitate her hairstyle, glasses or make-up. I just don't get it.

Eileen Sellers
09-19-2008, 05:07 PM
Why do you prefer her over Obama?


Because she isn't running for President. If Biden was running for President, and OBamba for Vice President, I think the race would be more interesting and more evenly matched.

tdew
09-19-2008, 05:20 PM
.
I cannot for the life of me understand why women would want to imitate her hairstyle, glasses or make-up. I just don't get it.
Are you Kidding? I don't understand what her hairstyle, glasses or make-up have to do with anything?
Does this mean that the men who are supporting Obama for president are going to imitate his hair style etc?

greenearth
09-19-2008, 06:09 PM
Because she isn't running for President. If Biden was running for President, and OBamba for Vice President, I think the race would be more interesting and more evenly matched.
But you do realize that she is a heartbeat away from being president and has a good chance of doing so. Any other reason? Maybe you should refrase that to say that you prefer McCain over Obama?
I prefer a person that is not going to try to overturn Roe V Wade that wants to work on alternative energy. That does not have a financial advisor that says that the people should stop whining when he himself was a part of what happened in this financial disaster.

Ned
09-19-2008, 06:15 PM
Terry, thank you for saying that. This election is very serious business for this country. Talking about Sarah Palin's physical attributes and fashion belittles the seriousness and importance of this election, and has absolutely nothing to do with who should get our votes.

Were Governor Palin a qualified candidate we wouldn't be talking about her "hotness" or fashion. I continue to be amazed at the conservative radio personalities working to hold on to conservative votes for McCain/Palin and move centrists and liberals to that camp by telling them how hot she is. I listened to Limbaugh yesterday to directly find out what he was saying. In less than a half hour, he referred to Palin being "hot" more than 20 times. After about 15 minutes I stopped counting. After a half hour I found his discussion so worthless and mindless that I turned him off. It was as though Limbaugh was endorsing her solely because she was a beauty queen.

Paraphrasing the words of President Andrew Shepherd (The American President) to relate my opinion of this matter --

"We have serious problems to solve, and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, John McCain and Sarah Palin are not the least bit interested in solving it. They are interested in two things and two things only: making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That, ladies and gentlemen, is how you win elections."

But it's certainly not how you govern or explain to serious voters how you will govern. Neither is talk about hairdos, glasses and makeup.

Are you Kidding? I don't understand what her hairstyle, glasses or make-up have to do with anything?
Does this mean that the men who are supporting Obama for president are going to imitate his hair style etc?

karenbjo
09-19-2008, 06:31 PM
I agree with Ned.
I brought up her hair style, glasses and over all style, because the media is constantly reporting about women wanting to copy her. It seems that her "hotness" is much of the basis of her popularity, and that is what is difficult to grasp.

Ned
09-19-2008, 06:37 PM
In that context K., your point is well taken. Thank you. I do agree that the media is out of control on that point. We need answers to serious questions and too often we hear about the waiting time to get Italian glasses like Palin's. What a waste of precious air time!

I agree with Ned.
I brought up her hair style, glasses and over all style, because the media is constantly reporting about women wanting to copy her. It seems that her "hotness" is much of the basis of her popularity, and that is what is difficult to grasp.

amybhole
09-19-2008, 07:42 PM
Do people honestly think she's hot? To paraphrase Paris, "She's so not hot." Political beliefs aside, I don't find her hot, only slightly more attractive than average.

Ned
09-20-2008, 08:42 AM
Amy, I for one don't think she's hot. I think she is attractive. In my book, in order to be hot, you've got to be highly intelligent and kind. In my humble opinion, she's neither of those. She only has veneer (and that soon fades), and that gets you but a third of the way to hot.

Actually, if I may digress a bit. To me it is very telling that the Republican media fixated on her looks, even more than the rest of the media. When I saw that, all I could think of is that the Republicans couldn't figure out anything better to describe her in a positive way other than she was "hot." Limbaugh and Beck have been harping on that all week (I listen to get a good laugh for a while). By now one would have thought they might come up with competent, thoughtful, intelligent, astute, or some other word which might give one confidence she could do the job, but those words remain unused when describing Palin.

Do people honestly think she's hot? To paraphrase Paris, "She's so not hot." Political beliefs aside, I don't find her hot, only slightly more attractive than average.

Loonbeam
09-20-2008, 09:47 AM
Okay, the creep factor kicked up a notch. Last night they had video on Countdown about the pastor at Palin's church (including a video of her praising how his laying hands on her helped her become Governor - divine right anyone?). Apparently, he also operates (or operated, not 100% sure) one in Kenya which conducted actual witch hunts. This is a person she defines as a major influence.

Video is available at countdown.msnbc.com - #3 I think.

tdew
09-20-2008, 10:29 AM
Re: pastors and major influences.
My biggest problem with Obama is the hatred that was coming out of the church he belonged to for so many years. This issue goes both ways.

I'm registered as a Democrat, but have voted independently often and will continue to do so.

Early on, Ned wrote a whole message about why he would not vote at all rather than vote for Obama. He was very convincing. I'm still on the fence...

Loonbeam
09-20-2008, 10:51 AM
It's definitely an issue on Obama's side as well, but at least there is a grounding in reality there. In his defense, that kind of rhetoric, although toned down, is present in a lot of urban (read african-american) churches.

Watching her speak in that video, I really get the feeling she believes that God meant for her to become Governor. And that's another way in which she seems either way too much like, or even worse than the current Chief Executive.

I've said it before, I was on the fence until McCain chose Palin. The more digging I do, the more I am 100% convinced she can't be within a heartbeat of the Oval Office. For me, this year is REALLY a lesser of 2 evils battle. And none of the above is not an option.

Ned
09-20-2008, 11:01 AM
I was on the fence for a long time, and while I still am not at all happy with Obama, I am so unhappy with and actually frightened of the policies and poor judgment of McCain that I'm off the fence and will vote for Obama. I've gotten to the point where I believe that McCain will not just be more of Bush, but will be worse, perhaps far worse. Part of my dread has to do with McCain's choices of advisers, and VP. They are idealogues of the far right of the far right, with too few exceptions. Palin's positions, for example, make George W. Bush's look liberal, in my opinion. Moreover, people say to forget about Palin because she'll be the forgotten VP like most all VPs don't count. Considering McCain's age and health, I believe there is a strong likelihood in less than 4 years, if we elect McCain president, Palin will be president. She, her experience, her positions, her expertise, etc., cannot be ignored.

Re: pastors and major influences.
My biggest problem with Obama is the hatred that was coming out of the church he belonged to for so many years. This issue goes both ways.

I'm registered as a Democrat, but have voted independently often and will continue to do so.

Early on, Ned wrote a whole message about why he would not vote at all rather than vote for Obama. He was very convincing. I'm still on the fence...

Eileen Sellers
09-20-2008, 09:10 PM
I prefer a person that is not going to try to overturn Roe V Wade


OK- I give up.
What is Obama's position on abortion.
Please reference your answer to his voting record on the subject.

Loonbeam
09-20-2008, 09:44 PM
This is a pretty good summary:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm

Ned
09-20-2008, 09:49 PM
Obama is pro-choice. Both NARAL and Planned Parenthood Action Fund (the political arm of the non-profit) have endorsed Obama.

Some consider Obama's voting record mixed because of his "present" votes while in the Illinois Legislature, however, and analysis by many, including NARAL gives him a thumbs up because they understand how "present" votes are used in Illinois, due to their system of legislative voting which is different that most every other state.

Moreover, clearly McCain/Palin are "pro-life" and in fact also don't believe in general medical methods of contraception. They are on record as supporting only abstinence and rhythm method contraception. Furthermore, McCain stated in February 2007, "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned." In 2003, McCain voted NO on legislation to improve the availability of contraceptives for women and to require insurance coverage of prescription birth control.

OK- I give up.
What is Obama's position on abortion.
Please reference your answer to his voting record on the subject.

greenearth
09-21-2008, 02:06 PM
Because she isn't running for President. If Biden was running for President, and OBamba for Vice President, I think the race would be more interesting and more evenly matched.



OK- I give up.
What is Obama's position on abortion.
Please reference your answer to his voting record on the subject.
Loonbeam referenced for me. Thank you Loon.
Eileen you never answered my question. So I will ask it in another way.
Why do you prefer McCain over Obama?
And why do you prefer having Palin over Obama? She is in fact running for VP but as Ned stated a good chance that she will become President sooner then you think.

Eileen Sellers
09-21-2008, 05:06 PM
Eileen you never answered my question. So I will ask it in another way.
Why do you prefer McCain over Obama?
And why do you prefer having Palin over Obama? She is in fact running for VP but as Ned stated a good chance that she will become President sooner then you think.

Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

McCain has opinion backed up by a voting record, Obama has none. Well, Obama does have opinions but none are backed up with a voting record.

Thanks for the link to Illinois legislature, but I want you to find his record since he has been in Washington.

Not to cite the obvious, but abortion isn't an issue in this election.

Bobbye
09-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Not to cite the obvious, but abortion isn't an issue in this election.

With Supreme Court vacancies the will probably become open during the next term I would think even if abortion isn't a upfront issue it is definitely an issue.

greenearth
09-21-2008, 07:26 PM
Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

McCain has opinion backed up by a voting record, Obama has none. Well, Obama does have opinions but none are backed up with a voting record.

Thanks for the link to Illinois legislature, but I want you to find his record since he has been in Washington.

Not to cite the obvious, but abortion isn't an issue in this election.

Care to back up his voting record?

Nah I didn't think so. I have plenty for you but would take up too much space.

Ned
09-21-2008, 09:46 PM
Eileen, you are the one who asked about abortion. You said, "OK- I give up. What is Obama's position on abortion."

Moreover, for many many people abortion is a very big issue in this election. Bobbye put it well when she said, "With Supreme Court vacancies the will probably become open during the next term I would think even if abortion isn't a upfront issue it is definitely an issue."

I believe the next president will probably get to appoint 3 associates justices to the Supreme Court and about 19 to various courts of appeal, and who knows how many federal district judges. McCain has said he believes Roe vs. Wade should be overturned.

If you want to know how big an issue it is, take a look a Planned Parenthood and NARAL missives. I get almost daily emails from these organizations about supporting Obama.

For many of us, a human being's right to control their own body, in this case a woman's right to control her own body is always a very big issue. For many of us, a human being's right to their own religion and their own religious beliefs are a very big issue. It may not be a big issue for you, but it sure is for many others.

And finally, if you didn't want to know, why did you ask? Your flitting is getting me dizzy.

Do you know something the rest of us don't know?

McCain has opinion backed up by a voting record, Obama has none. Well, Obama does have opinions but none are backed up with a voting record.

Thanks for the link to Illinois legislature, but I want you to find his record since he has been in Washington.

Not to cite the obvious, but abortion isn't an issue in this election.

bodega
09-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Not to cite the obvious, but abortion isn't an issue in this election.
***********************
Of course it is. It is a major issue for me. I don't know what news you have been listening to or reading, but just about at every turn, Women's Rights is mentioned, of which the right to choose is a major part. I don't care if a candidate is Republican, Democrat, Green Party or any other. If they oppose a woman's right to choose their own reproductive options, they are making abortion a political issue.

There will be new openings on the Supreme court during the next admininstration. If McCain gets elected, we could see Roe vs Wade overturned. Women will die if that happens, as abortions will continue, just not in the safest of environments...again! I will continue, on behalf of both of my grandmother's fight for the right's of women that they participated in back in the early 1900's. I am voting for Obama!

Eileen Sellers
09-22-2008, 08:59 AM
You all clearly care about the abortion issue. You are going to vote for a man who didn't vote on the issue that you care about.

Care to back up his voting record?

Nah I didn't think so. I have plenty for you but would take up too much space.

I'll help you out on this one, because I don't think you've taken the time to find out for yourself.

Mr. Obama took a "no vote" on the following issues regarding abortion:
S amdt 2707 - 9/6/07
S amdt 3330- 10/18/07
S amdt 3896-2/26/08

Maybe you can explain to me why he didn't vote.

Loonbeam
09-22-2008, 09:54 AM
Um, senate bill 2207 is:

Green McAdoo School National Historic Site Study Act of 2008

A bill to direct the Secretary of the Interior to study the suitability and feasibility of designating Green McAdoo School in Clinton, Tennessee, as a unit of the National Park System, and for other purposes.



If you are referring to amendments, those are usually poison pills designed to force people to vote against an issue or for a bad bill. If you can tell me what the original bill numbers were I can pull the specifics.


And no, I am not voting for Obama for just one issue. I disagree with a few of his positions, but many more of McCains. But the abortion issues IS relevant to a large degree because it shows a very clear facet for the candidates views on how the goverment should interact with the private lives of citizens. I find it supremely ironic, and not a little hypocritical that the candidate who pushes deregulation of the financial and health care markets also wants greater regulation of the personal and moral choices people make.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 10:03 AM
Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP.

CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To require that legislation to reauthorize SCHIP include provisions codifying the unborn child regulation. Amends the definition of the term "targeted low-income child" to provide that such term includes the period from conception to birth, for eligibility for child health assistance.
OPPONENT'S ARGUMENT FOR VOTING NO: Sen. FEINSTEIN: We already clarified SCHIP law that a pregnant woman's coverage under SCHIP law is optional. We made it obligatory so every pregnant woman has the advantage of medical insurance. This amendment undoes that. It takes it away from the woman and gives it to the fetus. Now, if a pregnant woman is in an accident, loses the child, she does not get coverage, the child gets coverage. We already solved the problem. If you cover the pregnant woman, you cover her fetus. What Senator Allard does is remove the coverage from the pregnant woman and cover the fetus.LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME:Amendment rejected, 46-52

greenearth
09-22-2008, 10:03 AM
Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion.

CONGRESSIONAL SUMMARY: To increase funding for the vigorous enforcement of a prohibition against taking minors across State lines in circumvention of laws requiring the involvement of parents in abortion decisions consistent with the Child Custody Protection Act.
OPPONENT'S ARGUMENT FOR VOTING NO:Sen. BOXER: We already voted for $50 million to enhance the enforcement of child protective laws. If Sen. Ensign's bill becomes law, then that money is already there to be used for such a program. LEGISLATIVE OUTCOME:Amendment rejected, 49-49 (1/2 required, or 50 votes; Sen. Byrd & Sen. McCain absent)

greenearth
09-22-2008, 10:05 AM
Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions.

This bill prohibits taking minors across State lines in circumvention of laws requiring the involvement of parents in abortion decisions. Makes an exception for an abortion necessary to save the life of the minor. Authorizes any parent to sue unless such parent committed an act of incest with the minor. Imposes a fine and/or prison term of up to one year on a physician who performs an abortion on an out-of-state minor in violation of parental notification requirements in their home state.

Opponents recommend voting NO because:
Some States have parental consent laws, some don't. In my particular State, it has been voted down because my people feel that if you ask them, "Do they want their kids to come to their parents?", absolutely. But if you ask them, "Should you force them to do so, even in circumstances where there could be trouble that comes from that?", they say no. This bill emanates from a desire that our children come to us when we have family matters, when our children are in trouble, that they not be fearful, that they not be afraid that they disappoint us, that they be open with us and loving toward us, and we toward them. This is what we want to have happen. The question is: Can Big Brother Federal Government force this on our families? That is where we will differ.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 10:06 AM
Oh and I have emailed their office for his word on this. Will get back to you as soon as I have a definite answer. But I seem to remember it was the wording on these bills is why he voted no.

Eileen Sellers
09-22-2008, 11:10 AM
I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean he voted NO. I meant he did not vote at all. He took a pass on the vote.
I think he was present for the vote but declined to vote.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 11:13 AM
I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean he voted NO. I meant he did not vote at all. He took a pass on the vote.
I think he was present for the vote but declined to vote.
again I think it was a protest and the wording on the vote. AS soon as I get an email I will post this. So please refrain Eileen from saying I don't do my homework. I do-a lot more then you will ever know.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 11:21 AM
here is some idea from an NY times article
Mr. Obama’s aides and some allies dispute the characterization that a present vote is tantamount to ducking an issue. They said Mr. Obama cast 4,000 votes in the Illinois Senate and used the present vote to protest bills that he believed had been drafted unconstitutionally or as part of a broader legislative strategy.
“No politically motivated attacks in the 11th hour of a closely contested campaign can erase a record of leadership and courage,” said Bill Burton, Mr. Obama’s spokesman.
An examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way.
In more than 50 votes, he seemed to be acting in concert with other Democrats as part of a strategy.
For a juvenile-justice bill, lobbyists and fellow lawmakers say, a political calculus could have been behind Mr. Obama’s present vote. On other measures like the anti-abortion bills, which Republicans proposed, Mr. Obama voted present to help more vulnerable Democrats under pressure to cast “no” votes.

In other cases, Mr. Obama’s present votes stood out among widespread support as he tried to use them to register legal and other objections to parts of the bills.
In Illinois, political experts say voting present is a relatively common way for lawmakers to express disapproval of a measure. It can at times help avoid running the risks of voting no, they add.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/us/politics/20obama.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1222100120-XRHUl8wQnVOOKv9H6MoEoA

Eileen Sellers
09-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Once again, I'm not terribly concerned with his Illinois votes, but with his congressional votes. In the senate he isn't under the constraints of Illinois law.


On other measures like the anti-abortion bills, which Republicans proposed, Mr. Obama voted present to help more vulnerable Democrats under pressure to cast “no” votes.


If that was his intention, it is a failed strategy and an ill conceived one, and one that is border line dereliction of duty. His job is to vote.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 12:13 PM
You know Eileen I let this go for a while but I would like to get back to Women against Palin.
Sorry you think he is wrong on present (it was a protest) but when I get an answer from there office I will post it here under another heading.
Back to the previously scheduled show. :)

Loonbeam
09-22-2008, 12:44 PM
I'm not quite sure how it was dereliction of duty to vote the way his party and organizations against abortion requested him to do..

I'm still trying to figure out your objection. If you want an anti-abortion, no-choice candidate, that's McCain/Palin. There's no wiggle room there, given the direct McCain quote "Roe V. Wade should be overturned."

Maybe Obama hasn't been as aggressive as you might like, but no matter what he's a far cry from the opposition.

But fine, dealing with Senate Timeframes Only:

Sen. Obama received the following scores on NARAL Pro-Choice America's Congressional Record on Choice.

2007: 100 percent
2006: 100 percent
2005: 100 percent


Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP.


Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion.


Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions.

(sorry for the font, it was a cut and paste)


Once again, I'm not terribly concerned with his Illinois votes, but with his congressional votes. In the senate he isn't under the constraints of Illinois law.


If that was his intention, it is a failed strategy and an ill conceived one, and one that is border line dereliction of duty. His job is to vote.

greenearth
09-22-2008, 01:02 PM
Back to Women and Sarah Palin

Opposes embryonic stem cell research

According to an October 2006 profile in the Anchorage Daily News, Palin opposes stem cell research, physician-assisted suicide, and state health benefits for same-sex partners.
Source: Boston Globe, "A valentine to evangelical base", p. A12 Aug 30, 2008
Every baby is created with a future and potential

Q: Your stand on abortion?

A: I'm pro-life. I'll do all I can to see every baby is created with a future and potential. The legislature should do all it can to protect human life. Source: Q&A with Newsmax.com's Mike Coppock Aug 29, 2008
Safe Haven bill: allow surrendering newborns without penalty

Governor Palin Signs 'Safe Haven' Bill Into Law: Bill allows parents to surrender newborns without prosecution

Palin signed House Bill 29 into law today. The "Safe Haven for Infants Act" passed the State House in May and passed the Senate on Jan. 19. The bill allows a parent to safely surrender a newborn child without the threat of prosecution, as long as there is no evidence the infant has been physically injured.
Without penalty, a parent may leave the infant in the physical custody of a peace officer, physician or hospital employee, or a volunteer or employee of a fire station or emergency medical service. "All children deserve to begin their lives in a loving, protective family," Governor Palin said. "When that fails, it is our job as a state to make sure that children are protected."
The Commissioner of Health and Social Services said, "Unfortunately, abandonment of infants has occurred in Alaska. It is our hope that the passage of the 'Safe Haven' act has ended that forever." Source: Alaska Governor's Office: Press release 08-020, "Safe Haven" (http://www.issues2000.org/2008_AK_Governor.htm) Feb 11, 2008
Adoption is best plan for permanency for foster care kids



WHEREAS, there is nothing more important to Alaska than the safe growth, development, and nurturance of Alaska's children. It is our children who will determine the direction of Alaska in future years.
WHEREAS, Alaska has 847 children living i out-of-home care who cannot return to their birth parents and need the security, encouragement, safety, and cultural continuity that a permanent family can provide.
WHEREAS, adoption is the plan for permanency for these children. In 2006, 226 children from foster care achieved finalized adoption with families in Alaska.
WHEREAS, children waiting for adoptive parents and adoptive families require and deserve community and agency support.
NOW, THEREFORE, I, Sarah Palin, Governor of the State of Alaska, do hereby proclaim November 2007 as:Adoption Awareness Month in Alaska, and encourage all Alaskans to become involved in community and state efforts to provide all our children with secure, nurturing, permanent families.
Source: Alaska Governor's Office: Proclamation, "Adoption" (http://www.issues2000.org/2008_AK_Governor.htm) Oct 22, 2007
Pro-life

I am pro-life and I believe that marriage should only be between and man and a woman. I am opposed to any expansion of gambling in Alaska.
Source: Campaign website, www.palinforgovernor.com (http://www.palinforgovernor.com), "Issues" Nov 7, 2006
Choose life, even if her own daughter were raped

The candidates were pressed on their stances on abortion and were even asked what they would do if their own daughters were raped and became pregnant.

Palin said she would support abortion only if the mother's life was in danger. When it came to her daughter, she said, "I would choose life."
Knowles, responding to the scenario involving his daughter, said he would counsel her and talk to her, but it would be her decision. "I would love her and support her no matter what decision she made," he said Source: Alaska 2006 Governor Debate: AP coverage of public TV debate Nov 3, 2006
If Roe v. Wade got overturned, let people decide what's next

Q: If Roe v. Wade were overturned and states could once again prohibit abortion, in your view, to what extent should abortion be prohibited in Alaska?

A: Under this hypothetical scenario, it would not be up to the governor to unilaterally ban anything. It would be up to the people of Alaska to discuss and decide how we would like our society to reflect our values. Source: Anchorage Daily News: 2006 gubernatorial candidate profile Oct 22, 2006
Opposes use of public funds for abortions

Q: Do you support or oppose the use of public funds for abortion (e.g., paying for abortion, promoting abortion, subsidizing organizations that provide or refer for abortion)?

A: I oppose the use of public funds for elective abortions. Source: Anchorage Daily News: 2006 gubernatorial candidate profile Oct 22, 2006
Pro-contraception, pro-woman, pro-life

What about the social issues that Alaskans, especially the party faithful who often decide primary elections, may find important? Here's what Sarah Palin has to say about abortion.

Palin said last month that no woman should have to choose between her career, education and her child. She is pro-contraception and said she's a member of a pro-woman but anti-abortion group called Feminists for Life. "I believe in the strength and the power of women, and the potential of every human life," she said. Source: Anchorage Daily News, "Little play," by K. Hopkins Aug 6, 2006
Only exception for abortion is if mother's life would end

Q: What are your views on abortion?

A: I am pro-life. With the exception of a doctor's determination that the mother's life would end if the pregnancy continued. I believe that no matter what mistakes we make as a society, we cannot condone ending an Source: Eagle Forum 2006 Gubernatorial Candidate Questionnaire Jul 31, 2006

vacationagent
09-22-2008, 01:22 PM
Since the topic of the thread is Women Against Palin, maybe it would be good for Eileen to say what she agrees with Sarah Palin on. Earlier in the thread Eileen said she agreed with her on some issues and disagreed with her on other issues. But all this about Obama's votes in Illinois and in Washington has gotten us off the track.

I would like to hear why Eileen thinks Palin would be a good VP and a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

Ned
09-22-2008, 04:52 PM
I apologize for not being clear. I didn't mean he voted NO. I meant he did not vote at all. He took a pass on the vote.
I think he was present for the vote but declined to vote.

Eileen, you are absolutely correct that instead of voting NO, Obama voted present while an Illinois State Senator.

Pam Sutherland, president and CEO of Illinois Planned Parenthood, had this to say about then State Senator Obama's "present" votes.
We had a very astute and devious Republican leader that we knew was using abortion votes as wedge issues, putting those votes into mailers to help defeat pro-choice Democrats. The votes were part of a strategy developed to stop Republican attacks on pro-choice candidates. It was our strategy, Planned Parenthood’s, to decide that a "present" vote was the same thing as a "no" vote. State Senator Obama was always ready to vote "no" on these bills, but he understood how it important it was to help his fellow colleagues. State Senator Obama was key to the strategy… not only did Democrats follow suit, so did many Republicans. The strategy actually worked… very few of those bills actually made it into law.I think Senator Obama's record on a woman's right to choose is excellent. It is clear to me Senator Obama and Senator Biden believe in the fundamental human rights that people should be able to control their own body and their own health care, ... unlike Senator McCain and Governor Palin, who believe the government should be the one in control, not the doctors nor the citizen-patients, of what goes on in the bedroom, the doctors office, and the hospital operating room.

Eileen Sellers
09-22-2008, 09:15 PM
The votes were part of a strategy developed to stop Republican attacks on pro-choice candidates. It was our strategy, Planned Parenthood’s, to decide that a "present" vote was the same thing as a "no" vote.


That's totally stupid and typical of Illlinois politics. Unfortunately we have one of if not the most corrupt states in the union in politics. I thought that when he moved on he might become more responsible.

NW CTC
09-22-2008, 10:00 PM
That's totally stupid and typical of Illlinois politics. Unfortunately we have one of if not the most corrupt states in the union in politics. I thought that when he moved on he might become more responsible.

Eileen, how is the above "corrupt" and/or "irresponsible?"

Ned
09-22-2008, 10:45 PM
Eileen, you continue to dumbfound me. How is Obama acting in any irresponsible way by working within the way the government works and using it to positively benefit his constituents, and act on his beliefs in the most effective way possible? How is it that you poo-poo his efforts, while those who have been in the fight for women's rights, and reproductive rights on the front lines give Obama their highest respect and highest ranking possible?

Finally, if you're going to call Illinois one of, if not the most corrupt state in the country, give us examples of their current corruption, not corruption from past decades, and show how it's more corrupt than anywhere else in the US. You're always asking for examples and proof from everyone else, it's time for you to prove your point.

That's totally stupid and typical of Illlinois politics. Unfortunately we have one of if not the most corrupt states in the union in politics. I thought that when he moved on he might become more responsible.

Eileen Sellers
09-23-2008, 07:46 AM
If a legislator gives up his right to vote and goes dumb on a subject, then he may as well not be in office. I'm willing to excuse Obama's bad judgement as just being new in office, and not understanding that his job is to vote.

Illinois has one past Govenor in jail and the one currrent isn't far behind. And I voted for him, a pretty face with the "let's change the govenment" mantra. He's the worst governor we've ever had. Chicago city council is operating at an all time high in ignorance and incompetence.
However, Mayor Daley should be cannonized for all he has done for Chicago. Mayor Daley doesn't take crap from anyone, he runs the city and won't back down from his positions. Unlike others who won't stand up to their position with a vote. That's the difference between those who lead and those who get led.

greenearth
09-23-2008, 09:22 AM
Since the topic of the thread is Women Against Palin, maybe it would be good for Eileen to say what she agrees with Sarah Palin on. Earlier in the thread Eileen said she agreed with her on some issues and disagreed with her on other issues. But all this about Obama's votes in Illinois and in Washington has gotten us off the track.

I would like to hear why Eileen thinks Palin would be a good VP and a heartbeat away from the Presidency.
Thanks VA. I would like to get back to Palin. Care to answer Eileen?

Ned
09-23-2008, 09:23 AM
Unfortunately, it appears as though you either don't want to understand, or wish to ignore the usefulness and importance of a "present" vote in the Illinois legislature, the way their rules are constituted.

One past governor in jail and a possible jailing of another doesn't make the state of Illinois necessarily the most corrupt state in the country, nor does incompetence on the part of any politician.

If a legislator gives up his right to vote and goes dumb on a subject, then he may as well not be in office. I'm willing to excuse Obama's bad judgement as just being new in office, and not understanding that his job is to vote.

Illinois has one past Govenor in jail and the one currrent isn't far behind. And I voted for him, a pretty face with the "let's change the govenment" mantra. He's the worst governor we've ever had. Chicago city council is operating at an all time high in ignorance and incompetence.
However, Mayor Daley should be cannonized for all he has done for Chicago. Mayor Daley doesn't take crap from anyone, he runs the city and won't back down from his positions. Unlike others who won't stand up to their position with a vote. That's the difference between those who lead and those who get led.

DCTravelAgent
09-23-2008, 09:38 AM
Eileen -

Just curious, months ago you posted that (and I admit I am paraphrasing but I'm sure someone here will find it) Obama is not really an American - I believe you based that on his being born in and growing up in Hawaii? Curious, do you still feel that way?

Also, to be fair, I do remember that around the same time you posted that you like Biden.

Personally, I'm not so much against Palin as I am against McCain, afterall, most people do vote the top of the ticket. Here's some reasons that I think do pertain to Palin:

I am very opposed to her stance on reproductive rights - not just her anti-choice/anti-self determination/infantalizing women views, but also her opposition to any sex Ed. in the public schools. I believe that if we drilled down even farther we might find that she opposed birth control of any kind, even within a marriage (but that is admittedly conjecture).

I am fearful of this next President's influence on the Supremem Court - I blieve at least 3, perhaps 4 Justices will retire in the next 4-5 years. I do believe there is a threat to Roe v. Wade.

And as crazy as it sounds - I believe that were McCain elected, Sarah Palin would in fact play almost no role in the Administration - McCain, Lindsay Graham, and Joe Lieberman will run the Government - and Ms. Palin will be relegated to running some sort of panel/project on Government Reform. This offends me as a woman because to some extent I believe she was chosen simply to energize the base and not for her abilities (or despite her lack thereof). BUT it also alarms me in that we could have a VP with little to no experience who suddenly finds herself pushed up into the Presidency yet has no idea what her predecessor was doing!

As to that event - I think it as likely that Obama would be assassinated as that McCain will sicken and perhaps die. That being said, at this point I MUST look at the entire package this time rather than just the top of the ticket and that clearly leads me to vote Obama/Biden rather than McCain/Palin.

Eileen Sellers
09-23-2008, 02:39 PM
Just curious, months ago you posted that (and I admit I am paraphrasing but I'm sure someone here will find it) Obama is not really an American


What I said is that he isn't American enough, referencing the fact that he missed being a raised as a black man in main stream America. But yes, I have changed my mind since he sat through years of the Reverend Wright, I guess that makes up for it.


I think it as likely that Obama would be assassinated as that McCain will sicken and perhaps die.

I don't think either one is likely to happen. Given that the medical care given them is exceptional. The last president to die in office from being sick is Roosevelt in 1945. I think he died in office, and the last President to be assasinated was Kennedy in 1963.

And not to leave out the other ladies. I think Palin is perfectly suited to be Vice President, and after the debate we can talk about what you agree with or don't agree with her.

DCTravelAgent
09-23-2008, 04:20 PM
Well everyone here has laid out wht they don't agree with. but you still haven't really said what you do agree with. You've already decided that you like her, but you really haven't said why... so, why?

As for likely or not - "just as likely" also means just as unlikely. BUT McCain has a history of a particular skin cancer that kills - often and regardless of how good the medical care is. And it would almost be shocking if someone didn't take a shot at him.

As for your remarks now about Obama not being "black enough" (just interpreting your words below) - you also indicate that he is "too black" for you. I suspect there is no black person you could actually "pull the lever for" for President, is there?

greenearth
09-23-2008, 04:41 PM
What I said is that he isn't American enough, referencing the fact that he missed being a raised as a black man in main stream America. But yes, I have changed my mind since he sat through years of the Reverend Wright, I guess that makes up for it.


Iand not to leave out the other ladies. I think Palin is perfectly suited to be Vice President, and after the debate we can talk about what you agree with or don't agree with her.
What the heck is American enough in mainstream America raised as a black man supposed to mean?
That is borderline if not .
And if you did not want to talk about Palin why do you keep posting on this thread? I want to talk about her now.

vacationagent
09-23-2008, 04:43 PM
I fully expect Gov. Palin to do a good job in a scripted debate. She was a local tv anchorwoman and is comfortable in front of the camera and has excellent presentation skills. Plus, she's already played the gender card so everyone has to show the utmost deference to her.

I heard on the news that the Palin people and the Biden people are having a difficult time coming to terms for the debate. No doubt, she wants to just memorize whatever script the Bush speechwriters give her and not be on her own to answer any questions. If I had her baggage, I wouldn't want to, either.

Since she's still using that "Thanks but no thanks" line about the bridge to nowhere, I'm not at all confident that she'll be truthful.

Eileen Sellers
09-23-2008, 05:20 PM
And if you did not want to talk about Palin why do you keep posting on this thread? I want to talk about her now.

You go right ahead, but without me. I don't think there is much more to be said in this thread.

greenearth
09-23-2008, 08:47 PM
Actually Eilleen there is a lot to be said and a lot to debate about. I am sorry that you feel enough has been said.

greenearth
09-25-2008, 02:11 PM
I keep thinking that this is a joke.
Sorry but I don't know how to embed videos so here is the link.
This is more like a nightmare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP12aNzocSc