Comments on: Major airlines do not regularly train pilots in simulators for icing stalls

By: James

James — Sun, 24 May 2009 13:52:43 +0000

I’m not a pilot (of any type), but if he/they have never had stick shaker training or experienced it they may have not realized it was a “stall” (ice related or otherwise). (How big of a plane is it before they have stick shaker). Not realizing it was a stall, though went completely the wrong direction (Pilot pulled the stick back, co-pilot retracted flaps, pilot ONLY applied SOME extra power). Maybe the though there was a mechanical/structural failure.

When I saw the news that he (PIC) had only a few hundred hours in that type of aircraft and investigators where confused by its erratic behavior, my first guess was he wasn’t experienced enough to respond to something about the Dash-8/400. (He’d been previously flying Saab Turbo’s, do they have a stick shaker).

My primary though on the training issue was, they needed more/some training on the stick shaker. (It sounds like, they didn’t know what was happening. I’m sure they’ve read about it, but it may sometimes (when you are tired, suddenly getting a shot of adrenaline, uncertain), it may take your mind a minute or 2 to realize a useful fact, by which time (for them) it was too late. I think the investigators have a term for the last critical mistake that renders the accident unavoidable, this would be that point. (It could have been avoided earlier had they monitored their speed).

By: The man who notices things

The man who notices things — Thu, 21 May 2009 00:48:18 +0000

And as Scott say, these 2 pilots had over 1 minute to prevent that disaster – in fact, the correct recovery technique takes less time to do that it takes to say. Unload the wing, full power. End of problem. Neither of them were paying attention to what they were doing – and THAT the American public deserves better.

By: The man who notices things

The man who notices things — Wed, 20 May 2009 23:47:39 +0000

Charlie is correct about not doing icing stalls in a sim and that icing stall recoveries are different from standard stalls – but – that being said – Charlie – whats the point here?

Colgan 407 did not experience a tail plane stall related to icing. It stalled because the airspeed got too slow. Or did you not get that part from watching the

So – whats the point?

By: Scott

Scott — Wed, 20 May 2009 14:22:43 +0000

I think you need to do more research. IF you have 10 hours as a student pilot, you have had stall training. If you have a private pilots license, you have deministrated stall recovery to a FAA examiner. While icing conditions present additional challenges, such as stalling at a higher airspeed”, it is still a stall and all pilots have practiced recovering from them numerious times. To say that “The American flying public is in danger…” is irresponsible reporting that breeds fear into travelers. You show that you failed to to the proper research into this article and presented only half the facts. .

By: SirWired

SirWired — Wed, 20 May 2009 13:29:33 +0000

“Few pilots are experienced at the counter-intuitive actions necessary to arrest an icing stall. The natural response is to pull the nose up to gain altitude, when the proper response is to push the nose down to gain speed and then ascend.”

Huh what?! This statement is completely false. While an icing stall occurs at a higher speed than a normal stall, the basic actions necessary to recovery are no different than from any other stall. And those actions are ones that most certainly should be reflex for ANY pilot. (An icing stall may differ in precisely how the controls will respond to inputs, but there is no excuse for pulling back on the stick like he did; that was the exact WRONG thing to do.) EVERY stall recovery involves dipping the nose to increase speed, and then gradually bringing it back up to increase altitude. While what you are supposed do with the throttle and the flaps differ depending on the situation, but you NEVER pull back on the stick as step 1.

During my short stint taking flying lessons (my last lesson happened to be my solo), we practiced stall recovery starting literally with the very first lesson. The fundamentals are identical for a Cessna 152 and a 747. Anybody that didn’t get thrown out of flying lessons as a teenager should be VERY experienced with the basic actions necessary for stall recovery. While the actions would be counter-intuitive for somebody that has never piloted a plane, they should be second nature for ANY pilot. If I had done what he did after my 3rd or 4th lesson, my instructor probably would have immediately taken the controls, and ended the lesson until he could figure out how to get me to do the correct actions.

In addition, during ground training classes, we spent three entire hours on when icing should be expected, and also its effects on the plane. (The primary effect is… an increase in the stall speed.)

I suspect he was simply not a good student. Just as when you cram for an exam, you may pass, but have difficulty applying the knowledge later. I think the same happened here.

If he had done the actions necessary for a regular stall recovery, instead of the possibly slightly different actions needed for a icing stall, we could argue about icing training. Instead, the pilot did exactly what he was never supposed to do for any stall, under any conditions, for reasons we will never be able to fully understand.

SirWired